Christians are asked all sorts of questions about their
beliefs. These questions often come from those who were once a believer and
extremely familiar with its core beliefs. There are a wide range of questions Christians
are asked, but the most common question asked by non-believers seems to go something
like… “How can you worship a god who endorses slavery and genocide among other
horrific acts?”
Christians commonly respond by saying, “Slavery in the Bible
was not the same as it was in American history. Sometimes a person was sold
into slavery because they had a debt to pay and if they did not have the money
to pay it, forced labor was the custom of the day.” (This was an actual response
from a Christian)
Christians usually acknowledge indentured servitude as this
Christian has done, but they completely ignore Leviticus 25:44-46, which
clearly states one can purchase slaves from other nations and make them their
property which can be passed down to their children.
“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.” - Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV)
Even when this verse is pointed out, they say it is taken
“out of context” or simply deny it exists.
Others will response by saying, Jesus came to abolish those
laws, and they no longer apply. They say this not knowing that in Matthew
5:17-20, it says Jesus came to fulfill the law not abolish it.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” - Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV)
This seems to be how all discussions go when a non-believer
asks a Christian a tough question about their beliefs. It’s as if they think their first answer was
a good one because that’s what someone they respected had told them, and that’s that. End of
discussion. They no longer have to think about it, and the Bible is still a moral guide.
But I have stumbled upon a question that they don’t even
want to attempt to answer. (This question is only for Christians who believe in
the Trinity) It goes like this….
If Jesus is God, does that mean you believe Jesus was the one giving instructions in the Old Testament for how to sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-11) or how to beat your slave (Exodus 21:20-21)? (include any other horrific actions that are authorized in the Old Testament)
It says in the OT God gave those instructions, and when these instructions are brought up - many Christians say, "Jesus came to abolish those laws." But if Jesus is God, then who gave those instructions?
The rational explanation for the Bible condoning such
actions, is that it was not written or inspired by a god. Ancient
men wrote it claiming to be speaking for god, just as other holy books were
created.
*This post is not intended to catch Christians in a “gotcha question”- but to encourage those who struggle with this question to be skeptical of their faith just as they would be with other religions. It is so easy for people of all faiths to justify their beliefs with bad reasons, and for those who care about the truth, they shouldn't be afraid to question their own.
Maybe God evolved
ReplyDeleteSo if god can make mistakes and change, who does he repent to when he makes those mistakes? Or does he not apply to that? And shouldn't another book be written to contain his changed rules?
ReplyDeleteIrrelevant nonsense. Until they can show that gods can actually exist and do actually exist, what these gods do or want from us is meaningless. Stop playing their game. Shut them down at the gate.
ReplyDeleteExodus 21:7-11 is describing that issue of what to do with a slave that isn't doing what its master wants or desires... The scripture says to release that slave but don't sell it the slave to foreigners because faith with her has been broken. If the he chooses the slave for his son, then the master is to welcome the slave in as family. If he
ReplyDeletemarries another woman then he is to release the slave is to be released with no pay.
Also Christ didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law, Matthew 5:17. This is saying that this term is used as an idiom meaning to properly interpret the Torah (first 5 books of the Old Testament) so that people would understand what God truly intended in His words.
"Human minds can never understand scripture without the Holy Spirit."
"Human minds can never understand scripture without the Holy Spirit." This translates into, "Only those who already accept the scriptures can understand scripture."
DeleteThat phrase is extremely convenient for those trying to defend their faith, but if those who are filled by the Holy Spirit can understand it, why can't they ever explain it? And why when they attempt to explain it, does it often contradict what someone else says who is also "filled with the Holy Spirit"?
Do you really think a moral god would play such a nasty trick on those who strive to accept things only when there are good reasons for belief?
People only understand what they want to understand in life. But with scripture it is not easy. Its not a matter of defending what one believes. Its a matter of what is absolute truth.
ReplyDeleteI really feel that God has done this in scripture because he wants us to depend on his answer and not on an mortal mans opinion. So to sum up the article ... God is all knowing and we are not, he chooses to do those things to make us ask for his help. Because all in all, He knows what's best for us when we have no clue. That's the power of God. That's the way its been for eternity and that's how it will be forever.
Proverbs 3:5-6New International Version (
NIV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
Have you read scripture? I would be frightened to live in a world where Yahweh's laws still applied! If you have ever worked on the "Sabbath" you would be as well.
DeleteDo you believe your god is a moral absolute lawgiver? If so, please see photo in the link.
https://www.facebook.com/discoveringreason/photos/a.279728938747749.92041.218404284880215/783896254997679/?type=1&theater
Remember there is always a meaning behind what God made law then. He was using the sabbath as an example of taking time to make room for him in our lives. We get so busy with the factors of life that we all forget him. The "resting" day of sabbath is a reminder of who He is and what He has done for us, by sending his Son Jesus to die for us.
DeleteHebrews 10:31 states that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God.
No one is full of perfection and upright truth. However when Christ came, he became our mediator to God. The Almighty would've destroyed us all and had a right to do so because of our sin. Jesus came to eradicate our sin by obeying his Father and dying for us. When we least deserved it. That's the beauty of The Son of God. God has mercy on us because Jesus died for us.
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ReplyDeleteI get the feeling that you feel like in order to serve God or even believe in Him that we are robots to Him. We are all given free will to serve or not serve. That's the grace of God. The beauty of his true nature. The law was given then to abide by... But just like now there have always been rebellion. The speed limit sign states 65 mph. Do we all go exactly that speed? No. We have the rebellious attitude at times. This is the free will. However there is forgiveness for all sin.
DeleteThis is true for the link. The law was given but you know all didn't abide by them. Therefore, you have Jesus on the scene to "fulfill" the law. To make way for a new way to serve God.... Forgiveness by mercy.
It sounds like you are saying contradicting things about your god.
ReplyDeleteAt one point you say if The Almighty God came down he would destroy us all. And needed to kill his son in order to forgive us. (btw, If so powerful, why not just forgive)
Then you also say this god is graceful and lets us have freewill.
Which is it?
Two questions for you before we continue.
1- Do you believe God is a moral absolute lawgiver? YES or NO
2- Do you believe in the Trinity, if yes, Please answer the question above, "If Jesus is God, then did Jesus also give the instructions in the OT? YES or NO
Thanks.
OK first of all God is both... A God of judgment and a God of love. God sent His Son to allow us to choose for ourselves. He is all powerful and could forgive. But He is willing to give us that choice.
DeleteSecond of all... Yes! God is an absolute moral lawgiver.
Next... There are 3 in the Godhead. Jesus didn't give the instructions God the Father did.
And BTW I have thoroughly enjoyed this convo dude. Keeps my brain going. :-)
DeleteGlad you are enjoying the convo, have you commented on this blog before or did you just find it?
DeleteWhen you say, "He is all powerful and could forgive. But He is willing to give us that choice." It seems like you are saying god is willing to forgive us, but he wants us to accept his son instead of just forgiving... is this correct?
If so, wouldn't just forgiving us be the moral thing for him to do, instead of risking people's lives on whether they believe the correct thing or not?
This god apparently knows the future and knows that people will believe in a wrong religion (resulting in him sending them to hell) but he wants to see (even though he would already know) who will be indoctrinated with the correct belief and who will be indoctrinated with a false one.
I don’t see how anyone could see this as moral. Because let’s be honest, religions require people to believe based on faith, NOT EVIDENCE. Demanding people to figure out the correct narrative that will save their “soul” yet not giving them any evidence to do so, is appalling wicked!
If that is not what you mean, could you please explain?
I found the article for the site on Flipboard. First time posting.
DeleteYou are correct in your first answer. He wants us to accept Jesus.
1 John 1:9 states that if we confess our sins to God, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
In other words we confess our sins with our mouths and thru the blood of Christ that was shed God forgives our sins. He sees us all as complete sinners and doomed for hell. He will forgive us however we have to ask for forgiveness thru the blood of Christ. Remission of sins can only be given by the shedding of blood. "Christ's blood."
Its not a matter of figuring it out. You know as well as I do that technology is well adapted to take care of those who have not heard a lot of Christ. There are missionaries all over the world preaching God's love and judgment. So with that being said. If you have heard about Christ and do nothing to make him your Savior then you will stand before God and give that account for yourself along with everyone else. Everyone that has heard of Christ has an opportunity to take advantage of His love and grace for our souls. Its up to us. Its our call
So I use to be a Christian, and if you want to read my short story of how I no longer believe you can check it out here if interested. http://www.discoveringreason.com/2012/02/how-i-became-atheist.html
DeleteI say this because I already know the Christian doctrines and all about the blood of Christ. I once believe that as well. So the question is, what makes you think any of that is true? Without using the Bible, because the Bible is not evidence, it is the claim. Just as it would be ridiculous for someone to quote Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer to demonstrate Santa exists.
It wasn't until after I stopped believing, that I realized how barbaric the idea is that remission of sins can only be given by the shedding "Christ's blood." Doesn't this seem extremely trivial and ridiculous that the creator of the Universe can only forgive if blood is shed? Just think about that for a bit. Is this some magical blood that allows God to forgive people (which would mean he lacks the power to forgive on his own) or is this just an ancient idea from superstitious desert dwellers. Which is more likely here?
And it would be a matter of figuring it out, because there are 3000+ religions and they all require people to believe on faith. Each have the same amount of evidence to back up their claims, which is none – some are just more ridiculous than others.
OK so first of all, this doesn't sound barbaric at all. For years in the OT the people would offer cattle and goats of the first born to insure the purity of the blood as a sacrifice. Now with that being said when God had enough of the "bypassing" of rules with sacrificing, He then set the idea in motion to send His only Son as a supreme sacrifice. So that no one would ever be able to bypass that law anymore.
DeleteAs far as the claim of God truly existing. Think about this to answer my question from you.... Why did everything we need in order to exist come into being? How was all of this possible without some latent outside power to orchestrate the precise dance of elementary particles required for the creation of all the essentials of life? This is something to consider when asking yourself why did I stop believing?
Your last question is dealing with faith. If you don't believe in God then do you believe in a devil?
Romans 12:2 says Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
I say that to say this... Other religions have a blind faith "policy" saying OK I believe so now let something happen. That is not the way God intended. God wants the believer to test the faith and be sure its of true nature from God. If a person is drawn away from the faith they need to think about this, no man's eyes are blindfolded unless he himself chooses to be blindfolded. That's what I have lived by my entire life.
You said, “For years in the OT the people would offer cattle and goats of the first born to insure the purity of the blood as a sacrifice.” How is killing animals for this reason not barbaric? Please, think about this. Just because it is in the Bible doesn’t mean it’s not barbaric.
DeleteAnd btw, how is killing someone who is “immortal” a sacrifice? It’s not a sacrifice if the being sacrificed is still living. Technically, Jesus wasn’t sacrificed, he was temporally inconvenienced (if you believe the story).
I don’t believe in the devil. If I don’t believe in Superman, it would be silly to believe in Lex Luthor. Same goes with the devil.
There is no difference between “faith” and “blind faith”, they are exactly the same.
As for your “Why did everything we need in order to exist come into being?” This is a common question but when using it for a reason for believing in god-it is a fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. But we actually do have good answers for this question that don’t require a god. This would be a lot of info to give you here, but we can have that discussion if you’d like. Although there are many great books, videos etc. to get this information that would be better than me explaining it to you on here.
Thought, my quick response to your question is, there are many billions/trillions of other planets that don’t have life. We are only able to ask that question because we happen to be on a planet that can support life (and these are rare). If life were capable of living on every planet, then the argument that the universe was designed by god would make more sense.
First of all, barbaric things have happened in all religions since forever ago. I can say that I understand your thoughts on that but I don't understand your reason. No carnal mind will ever be able to understand the beauty of God giving His Son as a supreme sacrifice. It takes God to give the understanding of how this is possible.
DeleteJesus became as a man (flesh) so that He could take on the sin to prove to everyone that trusting in God could be done in a hostile world. So Jesus was sacrificed because even tho He was the Son of God, He was a man.
I never said that no faith is needed. What I am saying is that God tells us to try the faith. Give a "partition" so that we can see if its God or just our imagination.
Everyone tends to have a thought about what God should've done in creation. People feel that its a waste of space to have all of this universe and yet one planet is made for us. However, think of this. Since God is the one who made the universe, it can scarcely be ‘big’ to Him. Humans struggle with its vastness because our comprehension is limited to the created time/space dimensions within which we exist, and it is mind-bending to try and comprehend anything beyond our dimensional existence. Size is only relative to us as inhabitants of this universe.
I read your view on why you became an atheist. Would you consider reading this?http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html
DeleteI will say that ultimately its not about an oversized God who is too big for life "kinda thing." Its about a God who thought enough of us to give us a way out of going to hell. Salvation is a beautiful story filled with love and compassion for those who need a Savior. We all need Him in some capacity of life. Everyday.
You say no carnal mind will ever be able to understand the mind of God, but if that is true, why are there so many pastors/priests etc. claiming to understand it? Many also claim that unbelievers can’t understand because they aren’t “filled with the Holy Spirit” and if they would only accept the HS they could then understand God. But I have noticed, they change their story as you have done to, “no one can understand the mind of God” when asked tough questions.
ReplyDeleteInstead of us debating whether the universe was created by a god or evolved by natural means. I think you should read up on how stars and planets form and then understand the basic principles of evolution and how natural selection works (this is a large task I know). Then once you understand what science has discovered on these subjects, we can continue if you don’t accept it. I hope this doesn’t sound rude, but in my experience it is frustrating discussing this topic if the other person doesn’t understand the scientific claims and explanations for these things. I understand both views and if you only know one view then there is only one conclusion you can come to. Plus, it never goes anywhere productive and would like to save time and discuss something that will be productive. I’d recommend checking out videos/lectures on youtube by Neil deGrasse Tyson and Lawrence Krauss. I think you’ll find them fascinating!
So let’s talk about something that we can both understand and ask the question, What is the best method for determining what is true? What can we do to make sure we don’t believe things which are false? What would you answer be to those 2 questions?
I have gotten the feeling from this conversation that a personal walk with God is what you may have never had when you were a believer. You see in order to know the true God and understand him, you would have to be in tune with God. Meaning a daily walk with Him. I say that to say this... I have seen demons cast of a man first hand. I have seen people fall through pews in a church and get up without a scratch. The best method for determining what is true is to try it. Put God to the test, He is faithful enough to make sure that you get your answer about what is true. The night I witnessed the demon cast out was the night I had to give all my fears to Him. It was terrifying to see a young man with his head twisting backwards and forwards and lashing out loudy at people in church. Telling ministers to get their hands off of him in a growling voice. You see man I had been in church and I had heard stories about those things. I had that one night of experience seeing it and I found so much truth in Gods Word. Until I experienced it all I had to go by was pure teaching. That's why I started this out by saying I felt as if you may have never had a personal walk with God where He can talk to you thru His word and tell you He loves you and cares for you. He cares so much that your hairs on your head are numbered. If yours is like mine then its not much LOL! There may be things we have not nor ever will agree on. But I can honestly say that God is asking you thru this convo, How long will you wait? How long will His love keep pouring out for you thru a man that happened to see your webpage and make a comment. Thanks for all this talk man. God Loves you!
DeleteWell you have no idea how my “relationship with god was” so I don’t think that will be a very productive convo either. There are hundreds of pastors who are now atheists, did they not a have “relationship with god” that was sufficient either? This type of argument is lousy and will not convince those who were once Christian.
DeletePsychology can explain why people may act like they are demon possessed.
You say, “The best method for determining what is true is to try it. Put God to the test.” I have tested and questioned God just as I did in this post. (Please re-read as I think you may have forgot about the incredibly immoral acts that “he” endorsed.)
My unbelief is not due to a lack of understanding of Christianity, it’s because I learned more.
I think that is an extremely poor way of determining what it true. Have you tried your method with other religions or just your own? People born in families of other religions use your same method and come to the conclusion that theirs is correct. So, this demonstrates how poorly your method is and I would say it is a better way of fooling yourself rather than determining what is true.
How about: Following the evidence? Not believe claims made by people just because you trust them (as everyone can be wrong even with good intentions)? Never taking anything on faith? Questioning everything? Withholding belief until there is sufficient evidence?
I think these are much better ways of determining what’s true other than “just trying it”. If something is true, it can withstand this method and one will be less likely to hold beliefs which are untrue.
I have a question... Is atheism founded on evidence or emotion?
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DeleteI'd have to say neither. Atheism is the position one takes when religions don't meet their burden of proof.
DeleteJust like abigfootism (the position people take when there is not sufficient evidence to support the claims for bigfoot) is not based on evidence or emotion.
It sounds odd to see the word abigfootism, because we don't need that word as few people believe in bigfoot. Many atheists, including myself, wish we didn't need the word atheism, because it is just as silly as the word abigfootism. But until people stop believing in outrageous claims based on faith, the word is useful.
The fact that there are "divine" commands that you dont like in the Old Testament, the Koran or any other ancient text aren't an indication that God doesn't exist. You are implying the following syllogism:
ReplyDelete1. If a deity existed, he/she/it would agree with my personal morals.
2. The ancient texts I am familiar with paint pictures of deities that disagree with my morals.
Therefore, 3. No deity exists.
This is an invalid argument because you can't prove your first premise. It is logically possible for a deity that disagrees with humans to exist.
Is this the same anonymous I was talking with a few days ago?
DeleteI completely agree with you. Just because I disagree with the “morals” in ancient texts does not mean a god doesn't exist. I agree 100%! If a god exists, it is equally likely that the deity could be evil (which probably would look much like Yahweh or Allah).
The reason I don’t believe in a god isn't because I disagree with the “morals” in ancient texts, it’s because there is no evidence to support the claims made for god. It’s that simple.
I discuss the immoral acts because many who claim god exists, also claim they get their morals from their god. So I bring up these verses/actions to demonstrate that they don’t (thankfully, most religious people are more moral than the deity they believe in).
If there was evidence to support the Bible being accurate, than I guess I would believe an evil god exists (still wouldn't worship it). But the evidence suggests the evil actions in the Bible aren't due to an evil god – it’s because ignorant and superstitious men with a poor grasp on morality claimed to speak and translate their god’s message.
You "memed" your response in facebook! Very smooth. Your meme-craft is on point.
DeleteAnd, no this isn't the same anonymous. I only posted the one response with the syllogism.
Delete