The following is a debate that took place over email which was started over this video link below, watch then read and decide for yourself which the most reasonable view is. Would love to hear everyone’s comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbgVV2ql5MM
Here is my take on it before you watch:
We have the first amendment as you know. Where government doesn't get involved in the church and church is to not get involved in government. The government has held up its end of the deal and allows churches the freedom to worship how they want no matter which religion that is. But the church is always pushing and forcing its views and ways on the government. (Which is why i respect Ron Paul, he is Christian but doesn't change how he wants the country to be run based on his personal beliefs.) This guy is not bashing Christians by the way, he is just calling out the ones who refuse to listen to facts and by them ignoring them and wanting our country to go in their direction they are putting everyone else at risk. Like the guy said, to them good things are bad and bad things are good. There is no way of dealing with people like that. If God was real, is that really how he would want people to act? And if he is not then what are you left with if these people get their way? Just like Harold Camping who said the rapture was going to happen and people spent their life savings on billboards to warn everyone, and when it didn't happen they were left with nothing! Some committed suicide, kid’s college savings were gone, and people lost their homes. This way of thinking that people have is going to get us nowhere. We have to strive for peace, not hope for destruction so we go to heaven. That is crazy!
So let me know what you think of it.
Christian Response:
I totally agree that we have a lot of crazy "Christians" and it causes a lot of confusion like causing people like you to just scrap the entire bible and Christianity in general. Now if they were truly following Christ and His ways....would they be acting that way? There is a difference between "Christians" and "believers or followers of Christ". You may not see that difference but I do. That's why I get stirred up too. Some think they know it all and try then to push it on everybody else. I don't see Christ that way...He did not push Himself on anyone but freely let them choose if they wanted to follow Him.
The whole world is full of crazies...if not from one side then the other. I just want to live the simple life and love people and even that is quite more of a struggle than I'd like these days.
I see this...try to picture it...a big circle called the world. Inside that is a smaller circle who are truly Christ followers who have received salvation and live simply by the red letters of the new testament...who love God and use their life to better others. We can live in either circle. Sometimes we are shoved around and get outside of our smaller circle and start acting like the world again...but we have to recognize that and move back into the safety of the smaller circle where we let God watch over us and fight our battles...resting in the Lord.
atheist Response:
First off it is not crazy Christians who have cause me to scrap the entire Bible; the Bible itself provides plenty of reason to do that on its own. I don't make decisions based on others actions, i base them on facts.
Second you make this claim that there are "Christians" and then "believers or followers of Christ" how do you make that distinction? You must know the answer if you see that, so look forward to hearing it.
Lastly I agree you said the whole world is full of crazies, I would suggest to you that it is religion that causes it. Religion brainwashes people’s minds and makes them think good is bad and bad is good. Fear is a very powerful emotion and religion takes advantage of it to get people to do crazy things. All you have to do is read the Bible to see that.
Basically, if there is a God who wants to come back, he’s not going to need our help to do so, he would be perfectly capable of doing it on his own. So we don't need Christians and other religions to end the world for him.
Look forward to hearing your answer for my second point.
Christian Response:
But are you looking at ALL the facts.
If you remember the Pharisees acted differently than Jesus and His followers. Remember the story of Saul/Paul...who persecuted Christians and then was blinded on the road to Damascus? Religious people believe with their head...those with a relationship with Jesus act with their heart. It's clearly different. Think men have more problems with this than women...cause we're made different.
But without the bible where do you get the guidelines to live that moral and good life? It is the guidebook for humanity. And where do those emotions come from...how did we get a mind to think clearly but God created us so?
Basically, if there is a God who wants to come back, he’s not going to need our help to do so, he would be perfectly capable of doing it on his own. So we don't need Christians and other religions to end the world for him. That's so true.
atheist Response:
You say real Christians act with their heart, you do know that the heart is just a muscle that pumps blood right? It is a term used for emotions. Using emotions is no way to discover the truth. Emotions are what cause people to do irrational things, example killing, rape, suicide, flying a plane into a building. Is that really the way you want to make your decisions?
I think my last email proves the Bible is no moral guide, unless you think those things are moral, than we have a bigger problem to discuss. And obviously some of us didn't get a mind that thinks clearly or we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would all think much clearer if religion didn't have such a strong hold of people's emotions.
Oh and those red letters, you realize they were written 50-80 years after Jesus' death right? How accurate can you really expect them to be? It is very possible a man named Jesus existed, and even more possible that the stories throughout the years were embellished and once they became so extravagant to the point it was news worthy someone decided to write about it. And we don't even know who that was you wrote it. In most bibles I think NIV mostly; it even says something like “we are not sure who wrote the gospels." So believing that red letters are credible is crazy itself. A God would not play an awful trick on his creation and require them to be crazy and ignorant in order to believe in him. He would have been smart enough to know that people would question this, and Jesus could have wrote the whole new testament if he wanted, but he didn't write a single word. So if ignorance and gullibility are requirements for heaven no thank you.
I know you are going to have a hard time reading this and I'm sorry, but if it is true these facts wouldn't exist. If a God exists and he wants to punish me for standing up for what is right and not following a book that condones slavery, oppression of women, selling women as objects, slaughtering people simply because they don't follow a God that a group of people made up themselves in order to justify those actions, creating a law that if a man rapes a women he then must marry her because she is unclean to other men (think that women really wants to live the rest of her life with her rapist). If these are the things I have to say came from God, I'm not going to follow it. And a moral God wouldn't want me too either.
Christian Response:
So let's just say there IS a God who created everything and that man messed everything up and manipulated the world with writings...how then should we live in relationship to God and man? What is the basis we use to know what is right and wrong?
atheist Response:
I think you already know this answer, I don't see you killing people who don't believe as you do. The Bible says that is ok. So if you get your morals from the Bible why aren't you doing this? Why do you think that women have a right to speak their voice in church? Bible doesn't allow that. Morals don't come from an authority, might does not make right. We get are morals based on how our actions affect others. If I don't want to be killed, I shouldn't kill anyone else. Read the Moral landscape by Sam Harris, (I have not read it myself but have listened to him speak in debates) if you have a hard time with understanding this. It is basically the same way libertarians think. We are allowed the freedom to do whatever we like as long as those actions don't affect others negatively.
Christian Response:
I believe you are not seeing the bible for what it is...you’re talking Old Testament but Christ came to redeem us from those curses. You truly need some men that are able to discuss this with you in great depth...I cannot.
atheist Response:
I'm reading the Bible for what it is, don't lie to yourself and keep saying it is moral. A God who is real couldn't possibly be that bad of a communicator. And if you remember I have talked to men who claim to know the Bible very well, and all of them had no response that was moral. I also have welcomed anyone to talk to me about it, including your friend who said he would be happy to talk to me, but still have not received a call. Use logic to determine your beliefs not emotions based on fear of an imaginary hell and the promises of heaven which prevents people from thinking clearly. Take those two things out of the equation and base your beliefs on logic. It is the same emotional pull of heaven and hell that causes all religions to convince people theirs is right.
And also, those curses you mentioned, guess who would have created those? If God is a consistent moral guide that is not possible. I realize you think what I am saying is worldly and Satan trying to use logic to take you away from God because that is what brainwashes people and is a way to keep them from leaving the church. Same tactic all cults use, this is just on a larger scale. If God is real he would be on the side of logic and reason and wouldn't make people believe the awful things in the Bible in order for them to get into heaven.
And many of those same immoral acts I mention are also found in the New Testament. I have shown them to you before but you forget about them on purpose so you can fool yourself into thinking they don't exist in order for you to continue believing. I suggest start making a list of these verses so you don't forget and I don't have to keep reminding you they are there.
Would love to hear everyone’s comments and/or argument for why you believe what you do. Thanks