The following is a debate that took place over email which was started over this video link below, watch then read and decide for yourself which the most reasonable view is. Would love to hear everyone’s comments.
Here is my take on it before you watch:
We have the first amendment as you know. Where government doesn't get involved in the church and church is to not get involved in government. The government has held up its end of the deal and allows churches the freedom to worship how they want no matter which religion that is. But the church is always pushing and forcing its views and ways on the government. (Which is why i respect Ron Paul, he is Christian but doesn't change how he wants the country to be run based on his personal beliefs.) This guy is not bashing Christians by the way, he is just calling out the ones who refuse to listen to facts and by them ignoring them and wanting our country to go in their direction they are putting everyone else at risk. Like the guy said, to them good things are bad and bad things are good. There is no way of dealing with people like that. If God was real, is that really how he would want people to act? And if he is not then what are you left with if these people get their way? Just like Harold Camping who said the rapture was going to happen and people spent their life savings on billboards to warn everyone, and when it didn't happen they were left with nothing! Some committed suicide, kid’s college savings were gone, and people lost their homes. This way of thinking that people have is going to get us nowhere. We have to strive for peace, not hope for destruction so we go to heaven. That is crazy!
So let me know what you think of it.
Christian Response:
I totally agree that we have a lot of crazy "Christians" and it causes a lot of confusion like causing people like you to just scrap the entire bible and Christianity in general. Now if they were truly following Christ and His ways....would they be acting that way? There is a difference between "Christians" and "believers or followers of Christ". You may not see that difference but I do. That's why I get stirred up too. Some think they know it all and try then to push it on everybody else. I don't see Christ that way...He did not push Himself on anyone but freely let them choose if they wanted to follow Him.
The whole world is full of crazies...if not from one side then the other. I just want to live the simple life and love people and even that is quite more of a struggle than I'd like these days.
I see this...try to picture it...a big circle called the world. Inside that is a smaller circle who are truly Christ followers who have received salvation and live simply by the red letters of the new testament...who love God and use their life to better others. We can live in either circle. Sometimes we are shoved around and get outside of our smaller circle and start acting like the world again...but we have to recognize that and move back into the safety of the smaller circle where we let God watch over us and fight our battles...resting in the Lord.
atheist Response:
First off it is not crazy Christians who have cause me to scrap the entire Bible; the Bible itself provides plenty of reason to do that on its own. I don't make decisions based on others actions, i base them on facts.
Second you make this claim that there are "Christians" and then "believers or followers of Christ" how do you make that distinction? You must know the answer if you see that, so look forward to hearing it.
Lastly I agree you said the whole world is full of crazies, I would suggest to you that it is religion that causes it. Religion brainwashes people’s minds and makes them think good is bad and bad is good. Fear is a very powerful emotion and religion takes advantage of it to get people to do crazy things. All you have to do is read the Bible to see that.
Basically, if there is a God who wants to come back, he’s not going to need our help to do so, he would be perfectly capable of doing it on his own. So we don't need Christians and other religions to end the world for him.
Look forward to hearing your answer for my second point.
Christian Response:
But are you looking at ALL the facts.
If you remember the Pharisees acted differently than Jesus and His followers. Remember the story of Saul/Paul...who persecuted Christians and then was blinded on the road to Damascus? Religious people believe with their head...those with a relationship with Jesus act with their heart. It's clearly different. Think men have more problems with this than women...cause we're made different.
But without the bible where do you get the guidelines to live that moral and good life? It is the guidebook for humanity. And where do those emotions come from...how did we get a mind to think clearly but God created us so?
Basically, if there is a God who wants to come back, he’s not going to need our help to do so, he would be perfectly capable of doing it on his own. So we don't need Christians and other religions to end the world for him. That's so true.
atheist Response:
You say real Christians act with their heart, you do know that the heart is just a muscle that pumps blood right? It is a term used for emotions. Using emotions is no way to discover the truth. Emotions are what cause people to do irrational things, example killing, rape, suicide, flying a plane into a building. Is that really the way you want to make your decisions?
I think my last email proves the Bible is no moral guide, unless you think those things are moral, than we have a bigger problem to discuss. And obviously some of us didn't get a mind that thinks clearly or we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would all think much clearer if religion didn't have such a strong hold of people's emotions.
Oh and those red letters, you realize they were written 50-80 years after Jesus' death right? How accurate can you really expect them to be? It is very possible a man named Jesus existed, and even more possible that the stories throughout the years were embellished and once they became so extravagant to the point it was news worthy someone decided to write about it. And we don't even know who that was you wrote it. In most bibles I think NIV mostly; it even says something like “we are not sure who wrote the gospels." So believing that red letters are credible is crazy itself. A God would not play an awful trick on his creation and require them to be crazy and ignorant in order to believe in him. He would have been smart enough to know that people would question this, and Jesus could have wrote the whole new testament if he wanted, but he didn't write a single word. So if ignorance and gullibility are requirements for heaven no thank you.
I know you are going to have a hard time reading this and I'm sorry, but if it is true these facts wouldn't exist. If a God exists and he wants to punish me for standing up for what is right and not following a book that condones slavery, oppression of women, selling women as objects, slaughtering people simply because they don't follow a God that a group of people made up themselves in order to justify those actions, creating a law that if a man rapes a women he then must marry her because she is unclean to other men (think that women really wants to live the rest of her life with her rapist). If these are the things I have to say came from God, I'm not going to follow it. And a moral God wouldn't want me too either.
Christian Response:
So let's just say there IS a God who created everything and that man messed everything up and manipulated the world with writings...how then should we live in relationship to God and man? What is the basis we use to know what is right and wrong?
atheist Response:
I think you already know this answer, I don't see you killing people who don't believe as you do. The Bible says that is ok. So if you get your morals from the Bible why aren't you doing this? Why do you think that women have a right to speak their voice in church? Bible doesn't allow that. Morals don't come from an authority, might does not make right. We get are morals based on how our actions affect others. If I don't want to be killed, I shouldn't kill anyone else. Read the Moral landscape by Sam Harris, (I have not read it myself but have listened to him speak in debates) if you have a hard time with understanding this. It is basically the same way libertarians think. We are allowed the freedom to do whatever we like as long as those actions don't affect others negatively.
Christian Response:
I believe you are not seeing the bible for what it is...you’re talking Old Testament but Christ came to redeem us from those curses. You truly need some men that are able to discuss this with you in great depth...I cannot.
atheist Response:
I'm reading the Bible for what it is, don't lie to yourself and keep saying it is moral. A God who is real couldn't possibly be that bad of a communicator. And if you remember I have talked to men who claim to know the Bible very well, and all of them had no response that was moral. I also have welcomed anyone to talk to me about it, including your friend who said he would be happy to talk to me, but still have not received a call. Use logic to determine your beliefs not emotions based on fear of an imaginary hell and the promises of heaven which prevents people from thinking clearly. Take those two things out of the equation and base your beliefs on logic. It is the same emotional pull of heaven and hell that causes all religions to convince people theirs is right.
And also, those curses you mentioned, guess who would have created those? If God is a consistent moral guide that is not possible. I realize you think what I am saying is worldly and Satan trying to use logic to take you away from God because that is what brainwashes people and is a way to keep them from leaving the church. Same tactic all cults use, this is just on a larger scale. If God is real he would be on the side of logic and reason and wouldn't make people believe the awful things in the Bible in order for them to get into heaven.
And many of those same immoral acts I mention are also found in the New Testament. I have shown them to you before but you forget about them on purpose so you can fool yourself into thinking they don't exist in order for you to continue believing. I suggest start making a list of these verses so you don't forget and I don't have to keep reminding you they are there.
If you read the Bible "for what it is" you will never get anything out of it. Faith is belief in something not provable. That's the whole point of faith. Why would someone put thier belief in a being that is not provable? They get something out of it. That's why. You don't, but you approach religion looking for negativity. You reject the Bible on the basis that it is an immoral book. You see heaven and hell as a risk reward system within a belief system that seeks to control. As a Christian I must say I don't feel controled. I have my interest. I have my work. I have my friends. My family. My realtionships. My problems. At the same time I have a relationship with God. I read the Bible. I pray. And that relationship acts as a center for all my others. The immoralities that you find in the Bible that cause you to reject it are a part of the story of human salvation. They have importance to moving certain elements along, even if parts aren't exactly the censored versions we heard as kids. In route it is difficult to try to pigeonhole the nature of God. What you attempt to do is paint your picture of who you think God should be, and then reject him when you feel he doens't fit that bill. God isn't just an entity making sure we all get along. God raises powers, and lowers them. He does this sometimes through his power, and at other times he challenges us to do it. Sometimes he helps us. Sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he is very involved, and sometimes virtually silent for long periods. Through it all we are have the say to reject him or embrace him of our own free will.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment. You say, “If you read the Bible ‘for what it is’ you will never get anything out of it”, I think you could say that about any holy book, yet I’m sure you don’t read any of those for guidance or believe them to be true. So why would you still do that with the Bible? You agree that your God cannot be proved - so are you ok with others who seek guidance and “listen” to what their God tells them when they believe in a god other than your own?
ReplyDeleteI have always been told that the God of the Bible is Moral, all knowing, and isn’t contradicting - Pasters say this every Sunday. These are not things I have painted of who God is, the Bible does that itself. When you read the Bible and see he is not those things - call me crazy, but I think it is only logical to say that God doesn’t exists.
I am okay with that. When people hear about wittnessing, they think of a Christian acitvely trying to convert them to their religion. I think of it as more of giving information that maybe they didn't know or misunderstood. maybe it happens 10 years later. Maybe it doesn't happen. I believe that's a little more in line with Jesus at least. If someone is listening to another god or no god I have no problem with it. Like you, I appreciate thoughtfull exchange on the matter.
ReplyDeleteI can certainly understand the confusion of who God is from various pastors and that being a problem. I find that God can be contridicting. The old and new testements are contridicting in their approaches for salvation, except the OT mentions phropocy of a savior. The Bible paints God in many different lights, with the only real consistancy being his working towards our spiritual salvation. Some pastors preach scripture. Some what you want to hear. Some a little of both.
By the way, i am enjoying your work here. I may disagree, but we should certainly be asking questions.
Oh, and why I wouldn't approach another holy book the same way? The way I see it, we only have one "faith," for a lack of a better term. And multiple beleifs are out to grab that faith. I've put my faith in the Bible, and in the Christianity of Jesus. Others have chosen differently and of course they beleive as strongly as i do that they have selected the correct faith. How do I know I'm right? I believe I am. But we all must choose something. Rather it be christianity, or the Jewish faith minus the new testament, or science with no god.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the spelling, and forgetting to answer a very important question you asked. It's late.
So what happens when those who pick a faith that says they should be intolerant of those you do not believe the same as them? And in many cases in history and even still today that means death. Is that a good thing?
ReplyDeleteAlso, are you saying that science is not compatible with religion? Because science is proven to be the best way of discovering what is true. Because of science we are able to have this chat through the internet with computers, we are able to fly to other parts of the world, cure illnesses, etc. If religion isn’t compatible with science, that doesn’t say much for religion.
I appreciate your compliment on the blog, thanks.
I think that science and religion approach two different subjects, so they can be studied side by side. Science can't answer questions about what happens to you after death, or why an experiencable reality even exist in the first place. There's no measurable way to observe those questions and find thier answers. So the answer must remain "nothing" in the eyes of science. I use technology, study science, and still maintain a spiritual practice. So I think they can be compatible.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a good thing that people of other beliefs kill just for the sake of not beleiving like them. Jesus offered choice, so I try to follow that example.
Science can answer many of those questions; it’s just that people don’t like its answers. So they hold on to delusions that make them feel better or calm their nerves. And to confirm this delusion people say science answers a different question.
ReplyDeleteI don’t see that science and religion approach two different subjects. Since many people like the idea of going to an even better place after the die “heaven”, they have created faith to keep that dream alive. I just heard a quote, “everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.” And it is because people don’t know for sure if heaven really exist. But faith keeps that dream alive, and for people who want to do that it is fine. But when they try and tell others how they should live based on their delusions they go too far.
Check out Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett, they two really great scientists showing us that science can answer those questions.
I think that's a broad generalization to make about peoples attitude towards dying. I don't want to die, but I'm not scared to die. I checked out Harris and Dennett briefly, but not enough to really talk about yet.
ReplyDeleteIt definitely is a broad generalization, I completely agree. But it was a quote, and their definitely is a lot of truth to the quote. For the most part people value their life more than anything else; and because most of us don't want it to end, it is comforting to tell ourselves once we die we will continue to live.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to consider what it's like to not exist anymore. I believe that whatever energy moves us goes ahead. The brain drives the body, but what drives the brain? Science would say that the brain drives the brain. That our emotions, thoughts, choices, and creativity are simply the results of paticular combinations of chemical reactions in our heads. At that point science ends. Spirituality begins. Why are those combinations occuring in the first place? But if there is an unseen force driving us, science cannot account for it. And so ultimately we must believe in it without evidence.... if we were so inclined.
ReplyDeleteThe afterlife is certainly something people would like to have. In Christianity though, you recieve life through belief in Jesus as the savior. Right? Faith. In that belief you try to follow his examples of giving, forgiveness, prayer, and fellowship. You don't do those things to attain salvation to meet your own desire for life, but because you are already saved.
I know it can be hard to consider what it is like to not exist anymore, but just because it is hard to imagine doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Before you were born there was nothing because you didn’t exist to experience anything. There was no a pre-life were babies hang out before it is time to be born and there is no reason to think there is an after-life for us once we die. It can be sad to think about, but it should put things into perspective and make us thankful for every day we experience and give us a reason not to waste it – since there is no promise of mansions made of gold afterward.
ReplyDeleteWe are just bodies that are aware of our own existence. And that consciousness takes time to develop. It’s why babies don’t know who they are in their first months of life but it slowly develops. It is a fascinating subject.
Saying since we are creative, emotional, can make choices etc. is the same type of thinking that caused men to worship the sun, rain etc. They didn’t know where they came from but the realized they needed them to live. Filling in the gaps with things we don’t know is not evidence for God.
Heh heh. You and I will never bridge the gap between faith and science. But I read where you wrote that you should ask questions of faith. Churches that have Bible studies are a good place to do so... I was at a Bible study once where a skeptic attended. It was far more instructive than any I had ever been to. This back and forth has certainly been interesting.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe there is any indication in the Bible that we pre-existed. Our existance begins when we come into the world, brand new souls that must grow and learn. People get mad at Jesus because he claims that "before Abraham, I am." Pre existance seemed to be a unique quality of Jesus, and was not supposed to be considering the reaction of his audience. Some believe that there is a scripture saying I knew you before you were formed in the womb... but this seems to be speaking more of God knowing the importance of the person he was speaking of before he existed. Sometimes it is interpreted as pre-existance. Corintheans approaches the subject as well. "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."
The Bible also encourages us to be thankful. The world was meant to be enjoyed by us.
Sorry, I'm a really bad speller. I blame it on spell check.
ReplyDelete